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"Frat boys in pushup bras?" [Oct. 8th, 2005|12:02 pm]


What do you think of women who seem to want to sexually objectify other women or themselves in ways similar to what men have done all along?

Take Cake, for example, a NYC-based all female, "feminist" strip club, where women are welcome to make out with the strippers while their male partners can watch.

How is this feminist? What makes this progressive? These aren't necessarily rhetorical questions; I'm genuinely curious.

Yes, women should be free to express themselves sexually, and far be it from me to discourage bisexual women from getting all the sexual pleasure they want. We are entitled to find sexual satisfaction wherever we find it, provided we don't harm anyone else.

It just seems as if, as a writer in Bust recently stated, they're saying, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."

I don't think we're far enough removed from the times we were seen as property to be objectifying ourselves and defending it as "It's my body and I can do anything I want with it! I want to be sexy, damnit, so let me go make out with my best friend, even though 15 years ago, we would be saying, 'Ewww, lezzies!' There are a lot of hot guys at this bar, and I want their attention!"

How are we supposed to be respected for our sexuality and not be seen as objects if we're doing this at such a crucial point? Again, I'm not talking about a woman who wants to wear a miniskirt, go out to dinner with her girlfriend and kiss her and hold her hand and have every right to be able to do this and not be harassed. I'm talking about certain degrading, attention-seeking behaviors that revolve around male approval but are defended as "feminism".

Also, while I respect sex workers for making their own choices and some are quite progressive feminists whom I respect, I do think that there are a lot of people who go into that field that do have a ton of internalized sexism and issues and are acting on it. There is porn out there that degrades women and sends the message that this is acceptable. It's my point of view that a woman who is in a Max Hardcore video, dressed as a little girl and allowing him to hit her and urinate in her mouth is not a feminist, no matter if the new party line is that they have a right to do whatever they want with their body, and I'm the oppressor for raising an eyebrow.

So, what do you all think?

(Deleted comment)
[User Picture]From: triphala
2005-10-10 05:13 pm (UTC)
Exactly. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be attractive, and to even revel in fun little flirty games with people, but there are so many other variables.
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From: smallraven
2005-10-09 04:54 pm (UTC)

Confessions of a Former Two Drink Lesbian

I want to be sexy, damnit, so let me go make out with my best friend, even though 15 years ago, we would be saying, 'Ewww, lezzies!' There are a lot of hot guys at this bar, and I want their attention!"

This behavior is often referred to as two drink lesbian behavior and often snarked and sneered at by myself and my friends. But then I started thinking . . .if I'm honest with myself, a lot of my earlier exploration into bisexuality started *just* with this kind of behavior . . .body shots at parties, bisexual spin the bottle, new year's eve kisses. If I am even more honest with myself, it was a heady time where I felt powerful and in control of my sexuality and having the aspect of voyeurs was part of the turn on for me. Yes, we wanted to impress the boys and impress each other, but if I hadn't started there, would I even have gotten started? Would I have gotten to where I am now (in a polyamorous relationship that includes a girlfriend . . .of mine)? Would I have been brave enough to think that maybe I could have a girlfriend and deal with it as another relationship and not something that is meant to be a lark and sexually enticing? Would I have opened my heart to have it broken by my first girlfriend that came of this exploration? I really don't think so. And that's me being honest.

Maybe sometimes being a two drink lesbian is a socially accepted stepping stone into exploring the possibility that this is something that is your own. And if I stay honest, would I say that I still sometimes miss that time when everything was fresh and exciting and the world was opening/ offering intricate questions and rhythms/ and strengths . . . /that you still haven't seen? Yes. I most certainly do. I wouldn't take back any of that for anything.

Does that mean that when I see the college girls and boys posing for each other like this that I don't roll my eyes and sigh and sneer? Hell no, I'm old now, I've earned that privledge. ;p
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[User Picture]From: triphala
2005-10-09 05:31 pm (UTC)

Re: Confessions of a Former Two Drink Lesbian

That people might come to realize their sexuality in all of its glory is a good thing. However, the following is still true:

If young men were allowed to do this too, it wouldn't be sexist or oppressive. We're socially "allowed" to do it because women's sexuality is viewed as something for men's pleasure; it's not taken seriously as part of being a woman, much less a woman with an alternative sexual identity. It's being porn.If that's what someone's ok with, so be it, but I do feel there are a lot of internalized ideas that go along with it.

Sure, my first bi experience was because the other girl wanted to impress her boyfriend. But I think its freeing up of young girls to explore their sexuality is only a side effect of a bid to win male approval and therefore supporting the same patriarchical structure. Not only that, but it further stigmatizes gay/bi women as sex objects to be harrassed.

I get disgusted with two drink lesbians (although admittedly, I myself used to like to bite girls at Rocky Horror ten years ago), because of this. I also feel that it's making a mockery out of gay people who have struggled with hatred and oppression for generations.

If two boys were making out at a party, even a lot of so-called progressive people would turn their heads away. If it was in a straight bar, they'd get beaten up.If they were "butch" lesbians, most people would be disgusted.

If my husband and I started clawing at each other as much as these girls do, we'd be told to get a room, that we were making other people uncomfortable.I actually feel that these girls are, in fact, being inconsiderate when they do this, just as much as we'd be if we started going down on each other in front of everyone. I'm not prudish, but I'm not particularly comfortable with the overt public displays of affection, especially since I know what the driving force behind it most likely is.

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